civil war 2
Posted by bryan in Uncategorized at 6:03 pm | 
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Someone told me last week that they thought “the next great war in the church would be the traditional church vs. the emergent church.” I wasn’t really even sure what he was talking about, but I thought to myself, man, I hope that’s not true. I know no one likes the either one of those labels, but if you have talk to anyone outside of your bubble (or read voxtropolis blogs and that christian newsletter thing) you have an idea about what I’m talking about here. After reading the develpoments in Voxtropolis this week, I wonder…Is this going to be the next big fight that consumes our time and energy as the church? If so, how much will this “war” cost the mission of the church? If not how will this “war” be averted? Or was this guy Chicken Little? I’m just curious what you think.
7th of March, 2006 at 6:15 pm
Well, if there is a war it will cost us greatly. I have no doubt that America will have the same disdain for Christianity that Europe had after the Thirty Years War between Catholics and Protestants. I think the only way to avert it is to absolutely refuse to fight, regardless of the onslaught posed by the opposition.
7th of March, 2006 at 7:47 pm
I want to say that I have no idea what you’re talking about, but I see the perspective. I want to say that whoever takes sides is missing the point, but I wonder if I’ve aligned myself on a side already.
I hope that what you’ve heard never happens.
If it happens, I hope I don’t ever hear a shot. I hope I’m “outside” with people on mission the whole time.
8th of March, 2006 at 4:32 pm
Right now I’m reading a book on the history of the Eastern Orthodox Church - that I’m really enjoying by the way. In this history, again and again there were devisions of the church where both groups had some sound Biblical truths and some pet additions.
Timothy Ware, the author of the book is very right when he said over and over throughout this history, that if the two groups had continued in Christian love and dialogue and had allowed each other to create a healthy tention within the church, things would have turned out better and more Biblically sound. However, as history has shown us that most arguements have turned to battles that either end in seperation or opression. Neither side wins.
Perhaps rather than just fighting for what we know to be true, we also remain patient and attempt to learn from our brothers in Christ, even allowing room for time and the Holy Spirit to change their ideas. Though our forms may be very different, our function on earth is the same. We are all fallible and we need each other.
So, my prayer is that the whole church will emerge as a unified Body with many - very different - parts that are enforced and supported by each other.
8th of March, 2006 at 5:02 pm
Amy, I love your thoughts expressed here!
8th of March, 2006 at 8:22 pm
Amy,
I couldn’t agree with you more. I really hope that we as a church universal can remain patient, learn form each other, find common ground, and ultimately unite stronger than ever. I sense that a great deal of people on one side feel threatened by this “emerging church”. And people on the other side are sometimes fueled too much by rebelling against the traditional side. I really hope that this doesn’t lead to witch hunts and distancing. I really hope and believe that its possible for us to focus our energy on being the body and advancing the kingdom of God.
9th of March, 2006 at 12:38 am
Bryan,
You expressed the two extremes that I struggle with. Those on one side that feel so threatened by changing ideas in the church, and those on the other who embrace anything that’s different just because they hate things as they are. I don’t agree with either extreme, but have yet to figure out what I agree with.
The sad part is, I’m too scared to express my concerns. Most forums are slanted to one extreme or the other. So, if I express a discomfort with some practices in the “emerging church”, I fear being blacklisted as one who is narrowminded and unenlightened among those in the emerging movement. But, if I express the desire for change in a more traditional setting, I’ll be labeled a rebellious heretic who thinks the Bible isn’t true.
It seems most have their opinions, and aren’t really in any hurry to consider an alternative. So, for someone still trying to figure things out, I have a hard time expressing my thoughts and concerns for either viewpoint.
So, I agree with Amy and Bryan. I hope for unity in the body. I hope for the maturity to listen to each other’s ideas, and lovingly discuss. But ultimately, I hope our purpose of blessing the world isn’t forfeited so we can discuss our terminology and worship styles.
9th of March, 2006 at 5:47 pm
Sometimes when I hear about things like this, I wonder why we want to see people become a part of the church. Sometimes I would like to tell people about Jesus and never tell them about the church.
9th of March, 2006 at 5:53 pm
Me too, matt!
9th of March, 2006 at 7:36 pm
What are we calling “the church” though? You know, I’ve never experienced fellowship and growth like I have spending time with you guys. I believe that in our conversations, social times, and serving together, we have experienced the heart of church.
Maybe we just think about being the church too much. Maybe we think that’s supposed to look like something, so we arrange our circumstances to match that image. I don’t have to think about being a human. I am one. I don’t have to think about being an accountant. I am one. Maybe we dont’ need to think about being the church. We just are. Is that too simplistic?
9th of March, 2006 at 9:31 pm
I agree with aaron on that one. I think that more times I have been able to grow more by just hanging out with other christians outside of a “church” setting. I think what God tells us through our pastor is food, and then we have to digest. I’d say that conversations about God definantly help me digest and grow.
9th of March, 2006 at 10:11 pm
I agree with Aaron as well. I really wish I could just hangout with you guys and have conversations about things that matter to us and we could call that church. I think maybe I would not feel so beat down if it worked that way. When I spend time with you guys I feel like that is when I have the most abundant life.
10th of March, 2006 at 1:38 am
Taking the church - the coming together of all different kinds of people,, young and old together, serving and worshiping side by side - out of our experience with Christ is like saying there is nothing laking in being best friends with a guy and never knowing His wife. It’s possible, it’s less complex, but you also miss out the one thing He loves above all others.
I understand your frustration with her. Especially when she is unfaithful, but He loves her more than anything else… I think we can not truly be like Christ until we gain a love for the church (the whole church, not just our friends we are comfortable with). We need to learn from each other.
That being said, I do not think that the church is only in the confines of buildings with tax exemptions. Nor do I think that the church is in her full glory when it’s just a bunch a Christians chatting about life. Once again, it’s a matter of tension. Function over form.
I disagree with you, Aaron, that just “being” is enough. If the church is an organism, a relationship, an ever changing mix of people coming ever closer to our God, a Bride preparing for her Bridegroom, there are things to be done and evaluated as a responce to our being.
While you may not think about being a accountant, I am sure you think about the tasks set out for you and the best way to do them. If a client came up to you and asked you to paint his house as though this is what a accountant does, you would be able to express to him that this is not one of your accounting services. You’ve gone to school for many years to understand what is means to be an accountant and how to do accounting, so you know for a fact that this is not an accounting activity. And, just to clarify that accounted-ness, you probably go to conferences to find out more things about accounting-related-things. I’m sure you would be very polite, but you would think how absurd it is for this client to expect that out of an accountant.
So, my question is, what do we find so untasteful about being in the Body? Why do we not want to think about what it means to be the Church? Why do we look down on her, when we are her? How can we say we love the bridegroom, but hate the Bride (us)? You might prefer the brain of the Body, but without the heart and lungs, etc. you won’t last long.
10th of March, 2006 at 7:56 am
Amy,
You make some excellent points, and I suppose that my analogy wasn’t totally descriptive of what I meant.
I don’t hate the church (the bride) of Christ. I don’t think my buddies in this discussion hate her either. I think we’re just in a conversation about the frustrations that arise from some of the activities that take place in the tax-exempt building.
I asked at the end of my posting, “Am I being too simplistic”. I think the answer to that question is yes. My examples of what I am, dealt with me as an idividual. I guess what I’m trying work out (and remember that what we are doing is having a discussion, not declaring that we have it figured out) is how we incorporate our individuality into the church.
Isn’t the purpose of gathering as the church to worship God and spur each other on to good works? I think that sometimes our gatherings result more in people gossiping and trying to control the lives of other people with biblical passages taken out of context.
Amy, written communication is the least effective at expressing ideas for me. I know that I’m not coming across the way that I intend here. I love the church. I love fellowship with brothers and sisters in Christ. I love learning from the scriptures. I love encouragement. I love to worship beside other believers. What I don’t love is the fact that we have made certain traditions sacred to the point that we cannot discuss their usefulness without being labeled a hater of the church. When someone speaks up in a church about seeing an area where change can take place, they are taking a huge risk.
I can’t elaborate any more, I have to go be an accountant right now. But please hear our hearts on this issue. There are no church haters here.
10th of March, 2006 at 9:22 am
What I was trying to communicate in my reply was this, when you hear people bickering about each other in the Church in this insistants the Traditional church and the Emerging church. It makes it hard for one to want to tell people about a Loving Christ, that wants to passionatley persuit them with all of His heart and say and when he does this what happens you bicker with everyone else that has expereinced my love. Maybe I’m just bickering too, or maybe it’s because I love the church and want to see it fulfill what God created it to do and not what the enemy wants it to do which is fight a war against each other. I want to see God’s ultimate power show through his bride. This has been good converstation
10th of March, 2006 at 11:44 am
I completely agree with you Matt. I love the church too and want it to be what God intended it to be.
10th of March, 2006 at 12:18 pm
Sorry guys,
I don’t doubt your love for the church. I really did mean my comments as a reminders because I’ve seen to many inbittered members of the church turn in to themselves rather than dig deeper into the self sacrificing service life of Christ.
10th of March, 2006 at 12:41 pm
Absoultly Agree Amy,
thanks for the reminder. I am someone that needs to hear that. It’s all about digging deeper in to the self sacrificing service life of Christ (do you mind if I borrow that pharase?) Or as my friend Robby always says is it’s about “abiding in and pouring out Christ Love”
10th of March, 2006 at 1:00 pm
Amy,
Thanks for your insight here, and for the reminders that we need. I had actually read some of your postings before this conversation, and loved reading your thoughts. I think we’ve expressed the same desire in different ways. We desire for the church to be about “expressing faith through love” as Paul says in Galatians, and avoiding a church that is all about grooming itself (see robby.voxtropolis.com).
15th of March, 2006 at 11:41 pm
yes aaron…that is the only thing that counts…faith expressing itself through love. It’s time to embrace the mission and be engaged in out Creator’s story. Wrapped around Him.
26th of April, 2006 at 4:28 pm
So who won the war?
2nd of May, 2006 at 10:14 am
I won the war…because I’m japanese